“I have actually myself been quite downcast and depressed… I have had to give up a lot. None of it has been easy,” the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje

Tire-toé une bûche,

Screen shot

“I don’t have any reasons or any basis to say that I’m the reincarnation of any great lama,” said the Karmapa.


Can we finally acknowledge that the Chinese disrupted the Karma Kagyu sect when Thrangu, Akong and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoches collaborated with Chen Li-en to enthrone OTD as 17th Karmapa?

L’affaire est ketchup !



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4 responses to ““I have actually myself been quite downcast and depressed… I have had to give up a lot. None of it has been easy,” the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje

  1. We can and we must. The truth needs to be seen. And then the work begins.


    • This is where Karmapa Thaye Dorje has a role to play. He can continue on in his alternative reality or step into the breach created by the Chinese by their interference in the selection of the 16th Karmapa’s successor and find common cause with our 17th Karmapa in his self imposed exile in the West against the enemy of all Tibetan Buddhism with Western Characteristics, the Chinese.

      There is no middle way between dictatorship and democracy and the sooner both Karmapas recognize this the better for them us all as Karma Kagyu lineage holders in the tradition of the greatest Karmapa that ever lived, the 16th Karmapa, something we can all agree with here as such.

      • Dear Bill,

        Sometimes I respectively wonder what planet you are on. Karmapa TTD knows very well that there is no middle between dictatorship and democracy, he has known this from the very beginning and has never been on any other side than that of democracy. It seems only OTD Rinpoche needs a lesson here to see this. Karmapa TTD has a growing activity in North and South America and needn’t look to find any common cause at all with a non-functioning and fractioned OTD sangha if he doesn’t want to. There simply is no alternative reality here, there is only one reality. OTD is, unfortunately, a criminal as you yourself have so often pointed out and his organization is falling apart at the seams and he is wanting to quit himself if it were not the expectations of some of his followers (his own words). Karmapa TTD is already in the breach as his own Karmapa he has been here willingly since his escape to India and was welcomed into the arms of the Sharmapa, Lopon Chechu Rimpoche, and Lama Ole’s organization. We are the only true Kagyu alternative there is. The last man standing so to speak, the writing is on the wall in plain sight for all those willing to open their eyes and see. But I understand that it is hard for many people to see this. I wish them courage and strength. You, Bill, fortunately, have a lot of both of those.


        • I suffer not adults whom follow children. Invariably when adults follow children the child is spoiled in the process. This is the world I live in.

          In the world you live in apparently you are taken seriously despite your slavishly following what amounts to a child of privilege spoiled by the sheltered life he lives.

          In my world I would be mocked for behaving so.

          Even if I wanted to I could never follow either OTD or KTD. I’m not a follower. Your behavior. What the 16th Karmapa came to the West for was a better selection of prospective students than was available to him in India to point out the true nature of their mind for them.

          What made His Holiness so remarkable was his ability to follow us. Nothing was beyond his comprehension.

          In a departure from previous Karmapas he made himself available to any and all here, and he blew our minds in the process.

          Our accessibility to him was without precedent. Hitherto the subject of Mahamudra was only for monks in life long retreat for example. The Karmapa broke with that tradition for us.

          On a more personal note, I find your comment “We are the only true Karma Kagyu alternative” a disappointment. Listen to yourself. It is demonstrably false. There are so many choices available to us today it is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Only a member of a cult of personality would make such a claim as this.

          We are discussing two young people that whether either will be remembered as the 17th Karmapa will not be determined by us but instead by future generations.

          It is not until after a Karmapa dies does said Karmapa take his place among his predecessors in our visualization of the refuge tree while doing ngondro for good reason. Many a Karmapa has died before making a mark in this world. Perhaps your KTD will make his mark in the world someday. Perhaps OTD will make his mark in the world. It depends on the quality of the people they select to point out the true nature of their minds to as such, the true purpose of a Karmapa. And sadly I’ve seen no evidence of either OTD or KTD surrounding themselves with such people.

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